Refugio offensive WOES

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Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:30 am

Offense is not effective. Too many turnovers thus far. Freshman QB is easily rattled. Defense is good but costly mistakes by offense will give short fields and the bobcats wont recover. Shortening games by run run run isnt Refugios style. This offense wont be able to get by Shiner or Mason at this point. Defense will keep them in games but I see a role reversal against Shiner or Mason where 1st downs and yardage will be hard to come by.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby MrBob » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:40 am

Refugio’s bye week is after the Mart game. That would be the most logical time to make a switch, if he is going to. I’m convinced Coach Herring believes he doesn’t have the offensive line to run the spread. I say that because,in my opinion, he has everything else, receivers, running backs, and the QB that transferred in from Gregory Portland. But, I’m looking at the team from a distance, I’m not near as close to the team as I was a few years ago. I will say this, I have cancelled my accommodations and travel plans for the Mart game.
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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:26 am

Mart still beats refugio but definately mart might be a tiny bit down too altho Franklin quality team.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:09 am

If refugio puts up less than 42 this week then offensively its time to worry.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby BIG C FAN » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:56 am

What's up with the QB from GP ,heard he headed back to GP

GO BIG C !

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:28 pm

Saw refugio led Hebronvilke 35 to 0 after 1 quarter. Has offense changed at all?

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Eagle 1 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:30 pm

Y’all don’t know what offensive woes are.
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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby A1 EAGLE » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:05 pm

Just gotta git down on a knee and laugh on that one, :)) Eagle.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Windthorstfan » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:16 am

Eagle 1 wrote:Y’all don’t know what offensive woes are.

Scoring 7 points in the last eight quarters?!!!!

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Eagle 1 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:35 am

Windthorstfan wrote:
Eagle 1 wrote:Y’all don’t know what offensive woes are.

Scoring 7 points in the last eight quarters?!!!!

Against good defenses.
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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Upullinmychain » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Defense matter in the question of scoring points.. Lol

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:43 am

Refugio cant beat quality teams this year. With another bad loss where do they go from here?

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby MrBob » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:24 am

In my opinion, it is a no brainer to change to the spread. I mean Refugio will win District and make it to the Shiner game regardless of what offense they run, the veer or the spread. But I don’t think Refugio can beat Shiner running the veer, but the spread gives them a better chance. So why not go to it. It’s a bye week, so there are two weeks to implement it, and 5 weeks to polish it, before the playoffs. Shiner has a good team this year, and I’m not saying by just going to the spread, we will beat Shiner, or Mason if we get that far, but it gives us a better chance to beat them. I just hope Coach Herring is willing to change. He has been willing to change stuff up in the middle of the season before, and it has worked out for him in the past, but that was on the defensive side of the ball. It’s time to try it on the offense.
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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby tlbredemeyer » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:45 am

Just an opinion based on my observations from the Mart game.
If Refugio had tried to run a spread offense, they would have had negative yards instead of 97. The Mart D-line was blowing through the Refugio O-line like it was paper, and Mart's DEs spent more time in the backfield than Refugio's RBs.
I don't think the problem is with the offensive scheme, but rather with the way it is being executed. The veer, flex, whatever you want to call it, is a speed/deception based offensive scheme. Teams that run it well - Franklin, Shiner, Rogers, etc. - run it from under center, and the QB hides the direction that the ball is being transferred in an attempt to mis-lead the defense as to who has the ball. Refugio is trying to run the scheme from a sort of half-shotgun position which fully exposes the ball to the defense making it very easy to track the carrier - kinda like trying to run a shell game with clear plastic cups.
While I agree that something needs to change. I think moving to the spread with the existing OL would be more disastrous than whatever that thing was that they are running now.
Of course, stopping teams from scoring 41 would help also.

On another note. The last-second play where Refugio scored their TD was probably the prettiest throw and catch I have ever seen in High School football.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby MrBob » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:53 pm

Yeah, I think you are right, but I’m not concerned about the Mart game. I’m not concerned about winning district, because Refugio can run anything and win district. The next game that is a concern is Shiner. Like I said before, going to the spread does not say we can beat Shiner with it, but it gives us a better chance than what we are running right now. We have had success with the spread against Shiner. I realize our O- line is probably the weakest part of Refugio’s team, but we’re stuck with that. They are having trouble blocking out of this scheme, maybe they can do better spreading people out. Like I said before,I don’t see that Refugio has anything to lose by giving it a try. If we can’t beat Shiner out of the spread, than at least we gave it a try. I think it’s better to do that than keep doing what we are doing and getting beat, then wondering what might have happened if we would have changed.jmo
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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Refugio71 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:08 pm

tlbredemeyer wrote:Just an opinion based on my observations from the Mart game.
If Refugio had tried to run a spread offense, they would have had negative yards instead of 97. The Mart D-line was blowing through the Refugio O-line like it was paper, and Mart's DEs spent more time in the backfield than Refugio's RBs.
I don't think the problem is with the offensive scheme, but rather with the way it is being executed. The veer, flex, whatever you want to call it, is a speed/deception based offensive scheme. Teams that run it well - Franklin, Shiner, Rogers, etc. - run it from under center, and the QB hides the direction that the ball is being transferred in an attempt to mis-lead the defense as to who has the ball. Refugio is trying to run the scheme from a sort of half-shotgun position which fully exposes the ball to the defense making it very easy to track the carrier - kinda like trying to run a shell game with clear plastic cups.
While I agree that something needs to change. I think moving to the spread with the existing OL would be more disastrous than whatever that thing was that they are running now.
Of course, stopping teams from scoring 41 would help also.

On another note. The last-second play where Refugio scored their TD was probably the prettiest throw and catch I have ever seen in High School football.


I couldn't disagree more. If you look up the history of the Spread (air raid- Hal Mumme), it was created to help teams that were physically smaller and inferior to college teams they matched up against
. Qiuick passes would counter pass rushers and the screen game. Big line splits would put best pass rushers farther from QB. If the box emptied to cover pass, then you had fewer to block. When run correctly, it is a system that is hard to defend. Most pro teams have adopted a version of it and most college teams as well. It can give teams that are smaller and not big up front a chance.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:05 pm

Bredemeyer i dont think you really understand football and why the spread can be so effective.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby bluedawg » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:46 pm

Changing to the spread is something kids can't learn in 2 weeks don't care how many good athletes you have. This is the 14th year Stamford has run it, get em started in 7th grade and just keep building and even with smaller or fewer athletes we had, can still win pretty consistently.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby abe froman » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:43 pm

Refugio has run it for about 10 out of the last 12 years that Herring has been there. They have run it in Pee Wee, Junior high and High school. All of these kids have been exposed to it. No nearly as foreign as you make it sound. Ran it last year in high school.

Also they are literally in the weakest district in the state. It really is about 6 weeks until the playoffs that they will see as much as a sniff of a challenge regardless of what offense they run. This is why it makes so much sense to change because you are getting 5 scrimmages to tweak it and have it humming by playoff time

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Big Chief » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:42 pm

This opinion is just going off what I've heard from someone who's watched Refugio, so take it for what it's worth. He said the line is pretty weak compared to their lines of the past. So, my guess is Herring doesn't feel his line is strong enough to hold up the pass rush, and the spread will look real ugly because of that. I've never been a Herring fan, just because of some of his antics and lack of discipline of his teams, BUT the guy ain't stupid. It's been a long time coming, but I think Refugio just doesn't have the talent this year like they have the last 10, or longer. It happens to all programs, going to State 5 times the last few years makes it look like a given, a problem most towns would love to have.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Wildcatfan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:05 pm

Mahir wrote:Bredemeyer i dont think you really understand football and why the spread can be so effective.


That’s a bold statement Mahir. I’m sure he “understands football” just fine. He has been on here for a long time, and always has something relevant to add.

He is correct with the flexbone and Veer. Service academies run it because they have smaller athletes. The spread is about putting your athletes in space. Flexbone is about scheming. Both have there ups and downs.

The biggest kicker to me about this whole ordeal was the urgency with which the offense was changed. Normally you will see an offensive change start at jr high level, and work it’s way up with those kids. Not just an overnight change.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby MogulPride » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:09 pm

bluedawg wrote:Changing to the spread is something kids can't learn in 2 weeks don't care how many good athletes you have. This is the 14th year Stamford has run it, get em started in 7th grade and just keep building and even with smaller or fewer athletes we had, can still win pretty consistently.



Stamford has won when they had talent. Refugio has won when they had talent. That is the great equalizer. Talent wins at this level. Johnny and Joes not X's and O's. Did the bulldogs not run spread in 2016. No they had a downturn in talent or talent was young and not ready.Has the coach in Munday forgot how to coach? No, its very talent connected. Some towns have more talent on a consistent basis. Most small towns get a class or two thru every 6 or 7 years and struggle in between. The Albany Lions of the world are far and few between.Coaches get too much credit when teams are good and too much blame when teams are bad. Again, I am speaking at the lower levels.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby abe froman » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:47 pm

I think that is the kicker, people that follow Refugio football a lot closer than many of you know that Refugio has talent. They also know that they have talent to run the Spread much better than the offense they are running now. I maybe could understand the move to a different offense when they didn’t get the QB from Portland to move in but as soon as he was approved I switch back to the offense that they ran last year with the Kelley kid. Wouldn’t have been that difficult of a transition.

Also the fact they have gained less than 100 yards of total offense against Goliad and Mart in those two games, so is he really sacrificing much by switching back? It can’t get much worse than that.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby ima puncher » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:27 pm

Keep on plugging Fresh. Refugio QB. hard to get thrown in the spotlight so young but you've got a bright future ahead of you.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Boldcat88 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:20 am

ima puncher wrote:Keep on plugging Fresh. Refugio QB. hard to get thrown in the spotlight so young but you've got a bright future ahead of you.

5A transfer who is originally from Refugio at QB should lead this team to Jerry World. A proven 5A All South Texas QB! Keep Charging Kid! You can play anywhere on that field!

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby MrBob » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:49 am

No doubt, the O-line is the weakest part of Refugio’s team. The strongest part of Refugio’s team is the reciver’s And running backs. In the offense Refugio is in now. The O line is being exposed and the talent of the skill people is not being used. The Refugio faithful just think the spread would accentuate our strengths and hide our inadequacies more than the scheme we are running now. Like I have said, we can win District running either one, but we think we can advance farther in the spread.
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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby tlbredemeyer » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:29 am

Wildcatfan wrote:
Mahir wrote:Bredemeyer i dont think you really understand football and why the spread can be so effective.


That’s a bold statement Mahir. I’m sure he “understands football” just fine. He has been on here for a long time, and always has something relevant to add.


Thanks for the vote of confidence Wildcatfan. That means a lot to me coming from you.

Mahir, I stand by my statement. Refugio threw the ball 5 times against Mart with one completion, one interception and two sacks. Every pitch in space, or run to the outside ended in negative yardage save one. They couldn't move the ball against Mart last year either when they actually had a really good offensive core. I know last year is last year, and that Refugio doesn't HAVE to play Mart to be successful, but they will HAVE to play at a level CAPABLE of running with the "Marts" in D1, and since their offensive personnel is not as good as last year, they don't stand a chance without changing SOMETHING.
I already stated that what they're running ain't working, but I firmly believe that going back to "what USED to work" is not the answer either.

I think Herring is one of the best coaches in Texas High School football, and I'm sure he will get everything ironed out in his time. Keep in mind that he has to build a program that succeeds year after year; not just "this year." Maybe he thinks the level of talent he has coming up in the next few years is better suited to the "new" offense and he is trying to build a program for the next "n" years, even if at the cost of one or two seasons.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby abe froman » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:45 am

Refugio had 268 yards of total offense last year against Mart and save for 4 sacks that ended in minus 39 yards would have had over 300 yards . They moved the football. Maybe not as consistently as they would have liked. The thing that hurt Refugio is that they went away from the run. If you take away the sacks Refugio only ran the ball 13 times for 54 yards. Not great but averaged 4 yards a carry.

Mart has a great defense this year but Refugio's inept offense sure helped. Refugio only scored 2 touchdowns against Aransas Pass, let that sink in. I realize that the OL is probably not as strong as other years but the Spread can mask that. As stated above you run quick screens, draws, zone read, quick hitches, shovel passes, etc.. to alleviate the push that might be generated against this line of Refugio's this year. It also lets the talent on the outside be showcased. Also if Refugio changes QB's that will make a big difference. In my opinion making a freshman QB make so many decisions in this offense is a big mistake. Running the triple option/veer takes a lots of decision making by a QB and relying on a freshman is tough.

You are out of your mind if you think this kid under center wouldn't help Refugio's offense this year.
https://www.hudl.com/video/3/9997439/5a ... 11acbbdf1a

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby PurplePunch » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:50 am

Do you guys have a QB that can run the spread? Talked to a Refugio coach this summer who said no. If you do, do you have the superior athletes that can turn a bubble screen into a 60 yd TD? I’m asking these questions to learn about this team, not to demean it or get involved in the offensive scheme debate. We’ve developed a strange appreciation for the Bobcats getting to play them annually and I’m trying to understand the consternation.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby abe froman » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:11 pm

Look at the Hudl above. This is the QB that moved in from GP. At the time your buddy was probably right but not now.

Yes, we return 2 really good receivers(Tinsman and Ross) one all state. We also have a 22’ long jumper, a 400 State qualifier, and an AAU national qualifier in the hurdles. This doesn’t include several other scat backs and 2 200 lb potential backs in Mascorro and Canchola. Skill people are there.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Puncher Pride » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:35 pm

I finally watched the HUDL, thanks for sharing. I have no idea what Refugio looks like this year, but to hear Refugio fans talk about this Ochoa kid I was expecting to see Tom Brady. I don't doubt that he can be effective with kids like Tinsman, but that kid isn't even in the same ball park as Jarod Kelly.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby abe froman » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:15 pm

Well he was pretty solid for a sophomore in 5a so I think I would take my chances. Not many like Jared Kelley walking around. There is a reason he is the number 1 pitcher in the country for 2020.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Big Chief » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:33 pm

Puncher Pride wrote:I finally watched the HUDL, thanks for sharing. I have no idea what Refugio looks like this year, but to hear Refugio fans talk about this Ochoa kid I was expecting to see Tom Brady. I don't doubt that he can be effective with kids like Tinsman, but that kid isn't even in the same ball park as Jarod Kelly.


Yep, and my guess is Herring feels the same way.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Boldcat88 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:36 pm

Puncher Pride wrote:I finally watched the HUDL, thanks for sharing. I have no idea what Refugio looks like this year, but to hear Refugio fans talk about this Ochoa kid I was expecting to see Tom Brady. I don't doubt that he can be effective with kids like Tinsman, but that kid isn't even in the same ball park as Jarod Kelly.

5A All South Texas Newcomer of the year Austin Ochoa played 6A teams in pre season with Alabama commits on both sides of the line and did extremely well and ran the ball well and passed well! Refugio’s scheme last year had jared kelley throwing the ball 1st and 2nd downs and Jacobe Avery coming in on 3rd down to get the first downs in wildcat watch their film you might understand! Austin Ochoa never came out of games for someone else to get the first down for him he got the first down passing or running on his own two feet in 5A! Let that sink in! And only 16 years of age staying calmly in the pocket and making last second decisions. And still 16 years old! You didn’t look at the hudl cause you would have seen where he ran for a first down against State ranked Calallen making them look like bumper cars running with heart over matter for his team! And 5A district coaches saying glad they aren’t seeing Austin this season! Lol! Let that sink in! And a baseball stud with plenty of D1 offers just deciding where to play!

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby abe froman » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:39 pm

So the kid can play QB as a sophomore for a coach that won 3 state titles and played for 5 at Cameron Yoe but isn’t good enough to play 2a ball. Give me a break

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Puncher Pride » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:39 pm

Easy there friends, I didn't say he couldn't play, I just said that film didn't live up to the hype. I could give two flips about a District Newcomer of the year award, those mean nothing. Kelley has a much better arm. Alabama commits, lol. Alabama signed one kid from Texas last year,Jaylen Waddle, they have zero committed this year, lets keep the tall tails to a minimum. I know exactly what Refugio did last year with Kelley and Avery, I've seen plenty of film and games. Kelley made big throw after big throw on 3rd down against Mason last year, his arm is elite. You can get defensive if you want, makes no difference to me, but if the kid was as good as you are saying wouldn't Herring start him over a freshman? Maybe, he names him starter this week and y'all go on to win state, maybe not. I'm not saying he isn't far better than the younger Kelley because I don't know, I'm just saying I'd didn't see an elite player in that film. No need to get your under pants in a wad because someone else expressed an opinion that differs from the mob.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Boldcat88 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:54 pm

Puncher Pride wrote:Easy there friends, I didn't say he couldn't play, I just said that film didn't live up to the hype. I could give two flips about a District Newcomer of the year award, those mean nothing. Kelley has a much better arm. Alabama commits, lol. Alabama signed one kid from Texas last year,Jaylen Waddle, they have zero committed this year, lets keep the tall tails to a minimum. I know exactly what Refugio did last year with Kelley and Avery, I've seen plenty of film and games. Kelley made big throw after big throw on 3rd down against Mason last year, his arm is elite. You can get defensive if you want, makes no difference to me, but if the kid was as good as you are saying wouldn't Herring start him over a freshman? Maybe, he names him starter this week and y'all go on to win state, maybe not. I'm not saying he isn't far better than the younger Kelley because I don't know, I'm just saying I'd didn't see an elite player in that film. No need to get your under pants in a wad because someone else expressed an opinion that differs from the mob.

We’ll talk more after we play y’all!

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Big Chief » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:08 pm

Gonna have to get thru us first there buddy!!

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Boldcat88 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:40 pm

Big Chief wrote:Gonna have to get thru us first there buddy!!

Very true! Lol!

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby BIG C FAN » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:40 pm

you better be more worried about Holland or Thorndale they play this week and the loser will get the Bobcats the second round!


GO BIG C !

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby BigTweet » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:33 pm

BIG C FAN wrote:you better be more worried about Holland or Thorndale they play this week and the loser will get the Bobcats the second round!


GO BIG C !


If Refugio continues to play the way they have been...they won't make it past Holland to Shiner or Mason...Holland is a very game team, and they have some size. They can be the type of team I see pulling that kind of upset
And fight goes with that......

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:49 am

I think Shiner and Mason are licking their lips ready to eat up the bobcats this year. So a second round exit by Refugio wouldnt be what Shiner or Mason would want. With the way Refugio is playing im a little concerned even about playing 4th place tea team in district 15 just sayn. x_x

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby BIG C FAN » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:32 am

Refugio would win it by 35 ,there d is what holding them together.We have all been there before and realize without great lineman it is had to do much on offense without them .Good luck on the rest of the season.

GO BIG C !

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Big Chief
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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Big Chief » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:29 am

And heck yes we're licking our lips this year, but can you blame either one of us, lol.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:03 pm

No i cant blame Shiner after a heart breaking playoff loss to Refugio then being outscored 35 to 0 the last 2 years by them im sure revenge is in the air. Heck Shiner can be motivated for Revenge against Mason as well. What would be bad is get revenge then get upset by Price Carlisle. PC vs New Deal anyone??

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Upullinmychain » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:57 am

Sorry guys but you can't bring my Indians into Tha convo yet,we've yet to make it out of regional to semi's,so we aren't a serious threat as of yet.but and this is a big but,we have potential for just that this season..we shall see..chain....

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:44 pm

Lol will Refugios offense really get going tonite? My bet is put on yes. Very successful against weaker teams but not against anyone of quality.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Boldcat88 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:21 am

Mahir wrote:Lol will Refugios offense really get going tonite? My bet is put on yes. Very successful against weaker teams but not against anyone of quality.
Come watch the Bobcats during the playoffs and remember your last sentence. See what quality is!

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Mahir » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:20 am

How was the offense? Are they adjusting it? Not negative here on refugio just wondering what will they do to get better. Herring is no dummy he knows that offense aint gonna cut it against mason and shiner.

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Re: Refugio offensive WOES

Postby Bond007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:05 pm

Yes, there has been a switch to the Spread and it looked a lot better. Granted, they were playing Riviera, but execution-wise they did not have any turnovers. Figure it being very vanilla to start with and then expanding. Both Kelley and Ochoa played QB in this game.

Per Refugio OC: "#GunWingT goes for 309 yards on the ground, 132 yards through the air - 441 total yards".

The switch to the Spread changes everything. The defense will be even better as they won't be worn down. Offensively better spacing, far less turnovers, and they'll be able to attack and take advantage of those nuclear weapons they have at wideout. 'Cats are about to be a very dangerous team here in a few weeks.


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